Official Luthiers Forum!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=732678316 8

Is this just Lutz spruce? If so why in the world is it $329 for one guitar top?
I'm baffled....


edit: I remember now this is that one dude who hypes all the
wood...nevermind...John Mayes39052.9862268519

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

Did not see it either John.

I hope it rings well and has the best look one could see for that price!

Hey John,

I couldn't see the set either. But I did hear that some of his wood was going for very high prices. If you want to pay that much PM me, I have four or five of the fabled #'ed tree sets here, actually don't PM me.... They are nice, but I know enough about that tree that I couldn't ever ask as much as these sets are going for.

His wood is the Hybrid Spruce, I call it Lutz (Picea lutzii) but he has a few market names for it. Same stuff, I think it is good when from a decent tree and cut right. Not quite at the $325 range yet though.

Shane

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Canada

Here is a working link. It reads to me as this auction is for just one top.

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Don Atwood
Arlington, VA

Don't pinch this guy, the decompression could be explosive.


And to think I signed up for a build-off last year (actually, that could have been fun enough, but I hurt my back an didn't touch a tool for 6 months in 2005.)

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

sorry I inserted a space between the last number...

And yeah it reads like it is for only one top. And no, there is no way in the
world I would pay that much for one top! I LOVE the lutz I get from you
Shane. I wouldn't think of going anywhere else. I just saw this and was
dumbfounded.

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

Holy Kermodie Batman. @#!^%$*&^(*&%

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Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

[QUOTE=Bobc] Holy Kermodie Batman. @#!^%$*&^(*&%[/QUOTE]

Jeez Bob, that's what you said when I showed my two flamewood sets along with my various Allied sets. I thought I was being reasonable compared to this

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

They also seem to be pretty proud of the Bearclaw tops as well. I think I will stick to Shane and the Zootman

Mike

Yup, we got the best sponsors to buy from, that's for sure!

First off - from what I understand, the curly figure in these is extreme to say the least - Ive seen a couple finished builds and its far more bc figure than any Ive ever seen in any other curly top - thats for sure.
It may be that not everyone needs a highly ornate top - but thats what it is.
Secondly while it seems like a heck of alot - I felt the same way about the massive pricetags on the Allied "special" braz rosewood, and the "TREE" mahogany prices > but being as scarce as it is - and judging that some people will pay the high prices, the market dictates a higher price, and will fetch it. no doubt.
I am part of the other forum {which this Ebay vendor owns} and must say that they have nothing but nice things to say about this forum and the people here...there. {does that wording make sense?}
I cant afford the "curly bear" spruce and have my mind made up to buy from Shane, still I think we should refrain from poking too much fun at these prices or the vendor, as Im sure alot could be said about high prices of certain items from certain vendors here as well.
I cant afford it - but so long as price is met, Im sure there will continue to be such high sticker prices.
Cheers
Charliewood
P.S. Cumpiano uses and loves the wood from this vendor.

All True Charlie. But Cumpiano uses and loves the wood he gets from me also. I know the history of this particular tree very well! I was the first person to cut any sets from it. I know the issues with it, some of them can be seen in the photos if you look closely. I also know that the best of the wood was sold four years ago for a WHOLE lot less (I am actually surprised he has any left being as popular as it was). But it is also true what you say, the figure is very nice, not the best I ever seen , but right up there for sure. The figure, coupled but with the charcteristics of Lutz I think is a great combination, but $325???? Come On!! I know that Cumpiano ain't paying that either!

Sorry.....I am Canadian!

ShaneShane Neifer39054.6913657407

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Canada

True Shane,
I agree with the sentiments completely,
and without a doubt - noone knows as much about this particular tree as you and Mario{and possibly a few other ppl in your area}.
What can be said here is true of any market driven insanely priced scarce wood, but I dont see anyone saying things like "Allied are on crack for asking what they do for B&S sets of the "tree" {or whatever...no-one said that, just an example.}
I would hate to be misunderstood, as sometimes I have a hard time typing out, what in effect I am realy trying to say.
I was just trying to divert this thread from becoming a forum vs forum thing, {white spy black spy} because some people might not know that there are broader implications at work here than just berating a random wood vendor on ebay, and that indeed the vendor in question happens to own a rival forum.
I was just trying to emphasize tact in this matter
Hell I think its expensive too!
Cheers
Charliewood
PS - Im glad WC likes your wood also Shane!

charliewood39054.6021180556

Charlie, thank you for filling in some of gaps from his Ebay page. It is very hard to tell if the info is hype or has some substance to it. I tend to lean towards hype when I can't find or have to really dig for substance.

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Aoibeann

I have nothing against the dude who sells the stuff (Mario is his name I
think) He seems like a nice enough fellow (can't say for sure I've never
actually met him in person). I've been around his forum quite a bit and
there is some good info there for sure. VERY cluttered looking and hard
to navigate though imo.

I have no motives other than just curious from someone who knew the
wood what the heck was so special about it. From what Shane says there
is nothing outrageously amazing about it. Good stuff? Sure. Worth
$325? Never to me, and I it just exudes the snake oil feeling to me. But
then again everyone is entitled to make a living and it's his lumber and he
can sell it for as much or as little as he likes. I was just baffled with it,
and had ZERO grander plans other than getting some clarification on the
wood. Once I realized it was that one guy who hypes his wood to no
extent I put the edit in there saying nevermind. If I could have deleted
the whole post I would have.

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

It does seem like a lot to pay for a top. He does however add free bracing with every order. Still.... it’s a lot. But his customers must be satisfied since he has 100% positive feedback. I once considered his wood but have used OLF sponsors for all purchases.

Philip

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aka konacat

If you think my playing is bad you should hear me sing!
Practice breeds confidence and confidence breeds competence. Unfortunately, I'm stuck in practice.

I've got no problem with Mario or his decision to sell this top for that much money, but the first thing I noticed was the massive runout on the upper part of the top. Does anyone else notice that the top gets VERY fuzzy right above the engineer's triangle that is written on the top.

I've got a 70203 top that Mario gave me free, from a few years back, that has light bearclaw (no runout/perfect quarter) but has 2 tiny pitch pockets. It's a very nice top. The amount of bearclaw and moderate figure some of these tops have is what Mario is charging top dollar for. This top has that figure and bearclaw but has runout. Again, I'm not knocking Mario's stuff but take a close look at the picture in the listing. Shane please correct me if I'm wrong about the visual indicators of runout.

He does hype his stuff a bunch but he also does deserve his 100% ebay feedback. If you have a problem he is good about going the distance to make it right. He is like most of the vendors here and he throws in lots of free stuff with orders (not just the bracewood but free tops too).John Lewis39055.3743402778

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John Lewis
Wannabe builder owned by 2 crazy dachshunds

While at Ervin Somogyi's class in February, we got to go through a stack
of 100 AA Sitka top sets (the grade at which Ervin says the best 'value'
lies), and I ended up only picking out 6 sets to buy. And all 100 of these
sets were graded by someone else as being relatively 'equal'.

Different people look (or feel, or listen, or taste...) for different things
when selecting tonewood, so I just can't imagine paying this kind of price
for something without 'interacting' with it first. It is a burden we all have
to bear when buying wood mailorder, but it is what keeps me from
dropping the big bucks on a set I haven't touched.

That said, I am willing to take a chance now and again on bargains
because, well, I have less to lose. And I can say that Shane was very
accommodating when I tried to express what I was looking for in top
wood. I was as detailed as possible in my description and Shane came
through for me. I would definitely prefer to get my mitts on any
prospective purchase though.

I need to go visit Shane...

Cheers,
-Dave

P.S. This is not to say I wouldn't go rummage through Mario's stash as
well.dgalas39056.5372222222

Mario and I have a bit of "history" so I don't really want to get caught in a "bashing incident" so I won't. Mario gets his wood from the same general area as I do. He actually bucked and split his logs on my property for a few months and I set up his first saw and cut some sets from this very tree. He had sold this log to a non-luthier related spruce consumer and it was being returned to him when I first met him. The log has twist in it, along the entire length, and was not usable to this user. As a result every top has runout. Although some say that you can cut to compensate for runout, I have scratched my head nearly bald and turned and twisted billets every which way and I don't think that you can eliminate runout in a twisted tree, you can minimize the visual effects if you are careful (and think about it enough) but the runout is still there. The figure in that tree is quite good, My comment to Mario was that he "needed" to get the tree back, because the figure was impressive. But for me, to pay that kind of money for a guitar top set it would have to be structurally perfect AND visually exceptional! In my opinion this tree can never be that good, because of the twist. As you say John, that is the runout you see (Just look at each end of the set you have, does the grain run PERFECTLY vertical on both ends? Also the grain spacing is not even across the top and the grain lines are rarely straight, these are some of the key properties of great tops, figure alone is not enough, for a top!). I don't know much about the "tree" or other special wood sources, but I think that they were labelled by knowledgable luthiers, not a wood cutter and referred to backs and sides, not tops. I also agree that if Mario can get that kind of money for a single top, all the power to him. But I doubt that the big names in luthery are buying them....but I could be wrong there too.

Just for the record, since we are on the subject and many of you frequent Mario's forum, the issue between Mario and I is that he thinks that I have stolen his idea by going off on my own with the tonewood thing when he wasn't intersted in partnering. Like I said, Mario has access to good wood. I no longer have a clue how he handles it once he starts to process it and I will keep my opinions on this to myself. I actually used my volume of "Cumpiano and Natelson" as a guide when he and I discussed issues like runout and other properties of top wood. I explained to him that this was "the bible" for guitar makers and we should heed what is stated. Thats where I started and have moved forward from there, including extended discussions with Bill Cumpiano and MANY other fine luthiers on what makes a great top great! I love to learn and always pay attenetion to feedback, even when it is not complementry!

Shane

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Canada

Well stated, Shane...

I, on the other hand, have no need to refrain from what I really think....


I've spent many-a-year trying to dispel the myths and misconceptions
that abound in the world of tonewood harvesting, and then along comes
someone who makes statements like these:

" Kermodie Spruce® hybrid known as Picea ? lutzii can only be bought
from me or an authorized vendor of sprucetonewood."

Or....

" We have a outstanding hybrid that matches and we feel exceeds
European Tonewood in tonal quality. Why because our wood is older.
Most of these trees are 300 to 700 years old and tight grain. The
European is usually in the 100 to 300 year old bracket. The wood is better
than European and we are going to bang our hybrid drum. The tight grain
is not because the tree wrapped it self that’s how you get run out. It’s
tight because they are old trees. And true as a stove pipe. They harvested
all the big wood back in the 14th and 15th century. If anybody would like
to question that I will put my wood up against European spruce in an
electronic analysis of the tonal response of your wood against mine.
Maybe have MIT do it. Be prepared to lose."
--

Gawd, I hate hyperbole, HS, and self-congratulatorial wishful thinking
when it comes to discussing these magnificent creatures....

Enough already....    

it is interesting to note that this item has apparently been withdrawn from ebay.

It's still there Michael, you have to use Don's link that is a couple below John's, John's has an error in it.

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Canada